New Name: Debate Club?

I want to thank anyone who takes the time to respond to our posts here at Stain Club. Commenter McD, you went especially huge the other day, and I want to thank you for your extensive comments. It’s rewarding to see that someone has not only read what I’ve posted but actually taken the time to respond to it in such a thorough manner. I took a lot of time to write out a response, and I figured it shouldn’t languish in the comments section of a two day old post, so I’m putting it here on the front page.

I have posted before about why I don’t think we should be in Iraq in the first place, and why leaving asap is the best among a number of bad choices available to us, so I won’t do that here. Click here to see my original post and the comment I’m responding to

As for point #1 – I agree that 9/11 was very bold. In fact, my very point was that it would be difficult to find anything more bold. In that case, if the terrorists are already as bold as they can possibly be, we don’t need to worry about emboldening them, do we? I don’t believe that the lack of terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11 is a result of the terrorists losing their boldness. I would argue that they’re probably as determined as ever, but they have been unsuccessful for the past 5+ years. This can’t be for lack of trying, so perhaps Bush and Co. deserve credit here, but that’s really beside the original point.

2 – Once again, my point about the decimation of Iraq and the deaths of family members of our enemies in Iraq was simply to highlight the fact that they probably aren’t in need of further motivation. If I saw my family, or those of my friends, dying every day I wouldn’t need to read about Harry Reid’s latest comments to get myself angered up, you see what I mean?

I don’t know where you got your information about their strategy, but if there’s proof that they are actively trying to influence American perception of the war then it’s news to me. As far as I can tell they’re doing what any guerrilla group would do; limit the fighting to small skirmishes, draw the violence out for as long as possible to inflict the heaviest damage with the fewest casualties. If that strategy happens to lead to a number of deaths that is unacceptable to the majority of Americans then so be it, but I doubt their original intention was to influence public opinion.

As for them “using” me – I was against this war from the moment the debate began, so if they are using me they began doing so even before they became our enemies. At risk of speaking for other people, however, I’ll venture that a large number of those who originally supported the war and now oppose it changed their minds as a result of Bush’s mishandling of it, not as a result of any strategy on the part of the insurgency. He was given the benefit of the doubt by a great many people in this country and he blew it, plain and simple.

3 – I have to plead ignorance on whether people worried about Hitler’s opinions, and you’re right that I should’ve read up about the home front before making the analogy. However I do stand by my point that it seems ridiculous for war supporters to spend time telling us how evil and awful the enemy is and then turn around and try to convince me that I should give a damn what that enemy thinks. They supposedly hate me simply for my way of life and the fact that I’m American, so why should I take the time to care what they think of relatively minor things like a non-binding resolution that won’t take effect until next March at the earliest?

4 – There’s a large difference between killing yourself for your absolute loyalty to your Emperor and killing yourself because your family and your way of life have been destroyed and you have no reason not take as many people with you as you can. Besides, the state of Japan surrendered when presumably many Japanese people would have preferred to continue fighting (no proof, just an assumption) whereas there is no sovereign state in Iraq and no leader who has enough control to enforce a surrender should he choose to declare one. The only comparison that’s appropriate is Vietnam, because that’s another situation in which we were fighting an entrenched guerrilla force, but thankfully we never found out what would have happened – or how many more would have died – if we had stayed there longer.

5 – I’ll admit that the bills were pretty close to not passing in both the Senate and the House, but let me point out that the original post said “a large majority of Americans” which is quite a different thing than “a large majority of elected representatives.” I didn’t know about the pork in the bill, and I do agree that it’s mighty stainful to waste money in that manner, no matter Democratic or Republican.

What would happen if we pulled out of Iraq completely? I’m by no means an expert on the crazy complexities of society over there, and I don’t have a crystal ball, so I really can’t say. If they eventually create a government of their own choosing then we will deal with that government, even if we don’t like it. This is essentially our policy towards Iran and all of the two-bit dictators, so I don’t see why it would be unacceptable for Iraq. I do want to point out that redeploying doesn’t necessarily mean isolating Iraq completely and allowing genocide or anything like that; we will still be stationed in the area for years to come and we will no doubt continue to influence the course of Iraq’s development. I guess the only thing I am absolutely certain will happen if we pull out is that America casualties will be substantially decreased or eliminated, and in my opinion that’s a great great thing.

If I am invested in anything I am invested in America. I love it and I believe it can be a force for profound good in the world. I want America to be respected and revered, I want our democracy to be a shining example to all those fighting for freedom, and I want our military to be ready to defend us from any threat. The problem is that the war in Iraq has revealed troubling aspects of our government, woefully damaged not only our standing in the world but our power in it as well, and substantially weakened our military.

I’m fine with Bush declaring victory, as long as it saves American lives, but if you insist on using the word defeat (which I generally refrain from doing since we haven’t been given have a clear or consistent definition of what a victory would entail) then I say that another word for defeatist at this point is realist. Do you really believe that it’s a matter of willpower, where if stand in the crossfire long enough we will win? What does “winning” even mean to you, or to Bush? At this point I think saving lives, both American and innocent Iraqi, is more important than saving face. In the end I think Bush will look worse for his stubbornness in continuing the war than he would for ending it.

I’m not sure if you are a regular reader of Stain Club, but I generally make it a point to criticize Bush (or anyone) on the substance of his opinion or his policy, rather than bashing the man himself. I may not always succeed, but I honestly do try. With that in mind let me say that I don’t really give a damn whether Bush looks good or bad. If you want to give me examples of things he’s done admirably in his presidency then I’ll give him credit where credit is due. If we attain victory in Iraq tomorrow (whatever that means) I will be the first to admit that I didn’t think it would happen and I was wrong. Until then, however, my overriding concern is saving the good Americans who are being killed and maimed daily, all for a war that even the staunchest war supporter must admit was questionable in its motivation and deplorable in its execution. I don’t want people to die, and if that makes me a Bush hater or somehow means that I’m “truly blinded by my hatred” in your eyes, so be it.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to comment on my post. It’s exciting to see that I’m not just shouting into a void, and I much prefer being challenged and even being called out on my mistakes to not being noticed at all. Keep on hanging out here at the Stain Club. Go Phils.

Adding... Alright, Plumpy's Ghost stole my thunder a little bit, and he makes some points better than I did, but I spent so much time on this that I refuse to not post it. I love the continuing commentary. Apollo, nice metaphor. Keep it up guys, this is awesome.